Curse

Bingley Joe · Aug 26, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

While it isn't that hard to counter, I do think Fragility is broken - it deals damage even if you inflict the same condition the target already has over and over, making Fragility like a super Conjure Flame for Rangers and their condition attacks.

I wouldn't really call that 'broken', as it's working just the way it says it will. When you recast a condition on someone, it basically has the effect of re-setting the timer on the condition, so they're effectively suffering from it all over again.

One could argue that being able to re-set the timer on a condition means that you could suffer from a condition 'forever' if you were being babysat and had no removals available (and one would be right), but in that case, you'd have to argue that conditions in general are broken, not just this skill that works with them..

Fragility is an easy counter. Not so easy that just any ol' profession can do it right, but any decently prepared team should already have the tools they need (I think..)

Mithie · Aug 26, 2005, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingley Joe

I wouldn't really call that 'broken', as it's working just the way it says it will. When you recast a condition on someone, it basically has the effect of re-setting the timer on the condition, so they're effectively suffering from it all over again.

One could argue that being able to re-set the timer on a condition means that you could suffer from a condition 'forever' if you were being babysat and had no removals available (and one would be right), but in that case, you'd have to argue that conditions in general are broken, not just this skill that works with them..

Fragility is an easy counter. Not so easy that just any ol' profession can do it right, but any decently prepared team should already have the tools they need (I think..)

GOOD fragility teams won't hit with fragility early in the match. They'll play attrition with E-denial/DoT's/heavy defense until your team's support casters run out of stamina and has a hard time keeping up your energy reserves. THEN they hit you with the fragility, and while an above average team will still be able to counter it, a mediocre team will usually crumple up.

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 26, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09

This is why you DON'T use teamspeak and vent.

Ctrl+click condition/hex, bam, that's communication.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

the problem with a fragility mesmer is that 1) its way too obvious who they are, just look for the me/n running into the fight all eager to kill someone and 2) once thye did a frag, theyre more useless than that frog in lions arch. in most cases they are good for a one person attack and then they crumble. which is why i always target the happy lil me/n first and have me and my friend use disrupting on him in line, they nearly always cast fragility first and they nearly always get disrupted that way.

and yea one convert hexes and your good to go. watch for remove hex, since they usually buffer it.

ive seen an actually good fragility mesmer who ran in, but then got me to follow him, use imagined burden when i was like half way between him and the erst of the group and owned me while i was figuring out where to go. those are rare tho, and anyways i just blame it on the monk

ElderAtronach · Aug 26, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Shielding hands owns fragility. Find a competant heal/prot monk if you're in the arenas, otherwise go with a full prot monk for tombs or GvG. It's fairly easy to spot fragility, especially if someone's running the Me/N virulence build.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Shielding hands owns fragility. Find a competant heal/prot monk if you're in the arenas, otherwise go with a full prot monk for tombs or GvG. It's fairly easy to spot fragility, especially if someone's running the Me/N virulence build.

shielding hands triggers with fragility?

o,0

something i did not know, thanks for sharing

Knight · Aug 26, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I've played on both sides of the frag build. All you need is Hex Breaker and you're golden. It's no cast, only 5 energy, and can last longer than 2 minutes. A mesmer will probably only try to frag you twice before moving on to a different target, not to mention that Hex Breaker also saves you from, well, all other hexes.

I especially enjoy it when someone low on health tries to recover by using Life Transfer on me. "Sorry dude, no Life Transfer here, and how about -45 damage from Hex Breaker instead."

Aug 26, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Fragility is, as months ago, still best used in a 2 or 3 man setup. a one man Fragility build trying to destroy people in 8v8 is pretty bad due to the amount of setup needed, and the one shot angle going against it.

For ganking a Guild Lord and Team Arena it's different since the options for countering a one man Frag gank arent really there in most cases.

Yen-lo-wang · Aug 26, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diomedes

It's like when you get hit with a mind wrack, you know that ppl are about to zap your energy

My guild actually played around with that in a screw-around GvG (we found a friendly guild that we scrim with once in awhile), we had three Me/N's, two with Fragility and two with Mind Wrack (and yes, one had both), and the three of us would concentrate on one guy at a time, slapping a Fragility and Wrack on him at the same time, then casting conditions and mana drains on as fast as possible. Fastest win we ever got

Lemmy · Aug 26, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

PvPing... Fragility pops up, my ranger crumples and dies. Went from full health to dead in secs.
NERF Fragility!
Or tell me how to survive it...

Seriously, first time faced that. Devastating.

Every class has a counter, as for ranger troll unguent as fast you see fragility destroys combo. Monk - obvious, just self heal / breeze / contemplation of purity, Mesmer - hexbreaker / ether feast,etc. That build is quite good for random arenas, but ONE heal prevents it.

arredondo · Aug 26, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Myth: Fragility+Virulence builds are helpless after a wave of casts.
Actually, it only takes a net 28 or so energy to lay down a good Fragility setup on someone. Plenty of energy left to use the other skills; he's no worse off than many other offensive caster builds who've used their first attacks.

Myth: Hex removal is all you need and you'll have no problems.
It's quite difficult to remove Fragility if Phantom Pain is being used. I show this in my original thread on this skill. A Mesmer's Fast Cast stats, the length of time it takes to perfectly cast a Hex remover as well and the penalties incurred if you're a bit late makes it an unreliable option. After Fragility is cast in .7 seconds, you have barely 2 seconds to complete a hex removal skill or you're toast - you'll remove Phantom Pain instead, incur a -100 point (average) damaging Deep Wound, and will be immediately afflicted with a .7 cast of Virulence. When I use this build, Hex removing opponents do half the work for me.

Myth: One heal stops it from killing.
If the build is set up well, you can do well over 500 points of damage to overpower the effects of basic heals. Plus its an option to A. Echo Virulence for double devastation every three seconds for 650+ total damage in one setup I've tried, but usually that's overkill. Most times one heal isn't enough to do the job of saving a target when I play my Fragility builds, even without the echo.

Hex Breaker is an awesome defense, even after its nerf, but that requires a Mesmer secondary and it doesn't help your teammate survive (I usually switch targets). Martyr is an elite but works great, and massive healing support is always good vs. any spikes. Interrupting the PP cast is also consistent, but trying to interrupt Fragility or Virulence without Guilt is too tough do to Fast Cast.

There are plenty of ways to defend it if you know its coming and are prepared to defend yourself or interrupt its flow. If not, it'll kill you quickly unless you have a lot of healing to keep you alive.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Myth: Fragility+Virulence builds are helpless after a wave of casts.
Actually, it only takes a net 28 or so energy to lay down a good Fragility setup on someone. Plenty of energy left to use the other skills; he's no worse off than many other offensive caster builds who've used their first attacks.

i take serious issue with that, 28 energy is 28 energy. UNLIKE an elementalist you have no attunement to help you, *and* you have a total of 40 something to go with. 40-28 = 12. you will undoubtedly spend a little more than 28 too.

think of a frag (a succesfull frag) as one skill costing around 30 energy.

in a generous estimate of 50 energy, 50-30 = 20, with the regen you experience, you may be able to do it twice. assuming ofcourse no one protects/defends the recipient, which will cause you to waste more energy.

if they do defend you may waste additional energy, bringing me back to my point: its a 1 time thing until you recharge.

and a fragility build includes quite a few skills, and an elite. i dont really see how it is your 'first attack', it is your entire build.

can back up your claim that you can do a frag more than once?

*edit* just to clarify, if you prematurely do a frag on someone, say not using all of your skills, you will not kill them. a botched frag is worse than doing nothing since it simply wastes more energy. i am assuming you wait until you are ready to do it, validating the 'block cost' i assiged it.

Aug 26, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

It's 28 energy on a mesmer. Even with barely any points in inspiration he'll have enough to go through 3 rounds of Frag spiking with a focus switch.

One heal does cripple Frag spikes, and thats the popular Prot Booner with Mend ailment and Divine boon that massacres those spikes so well. People are actually paying attention now and instead of removing PP, they just MA as soon the first condition pops up.

edits: Yea Frag build is most of the time your whole build. Thats why I call it one angle of attack.

Energy Regen does hurt, because your not waiting for lets say 10 energy, you need the total amount needed to chain the whole combination and thats where the biggest weakness comes from it aside from Hex Breaker.

We ran a Frag build, and iirc it used 35 Energy which was a bit much after the second volley, since the third volley would be delay a bit before it was just sit back and watch.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

since the main weakness of a frag build is the limited use, i was toying with the idea of doing a coordinated team frag with no mesmers as primaries. all you would need is a n/me to cast fragility and virulence, maybe another _/me to do the deep wound, and an ele with crystal wave for the final spike. this way you all share the spike, letting you last somewhat longer since you each have a definite role.

also as say an earth le with crystal wave you can bring multiple other skills, not just skills needed for a frag since you are splitting it into 3 players. so should your original frag not work you can back it up with something else.

ive never actually tried this so i have no idea if it will work, but im guessing you need awesome coordination for this. maybe one of you big guilds can try it? just a thought

Howling Wind · Aug 26, 2005, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I remember using fragility builds, quite powerful in doing damage and was used quite a bit by R/Me's before spirit spamming was discovered. Though fragility can be handled quite well by a Prot monk.

smurfhunter · Aug 26, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howling Wind

I remember using fragility builds, quite powerful in doing damage and was used quite a bit by R/Me's before spirit spamming was discovered. Though fragility can be handled quite well by a Prot monk.

spirit spamming is now off the shelf, and it was never really used in team arenas. which is why i think all these mesmer questions are popping up

arredondo · Aug 27, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Forum theory causes a ton of false assumptions. I've run Fragility+Virulence probably hundreds of times in the arenas... I'm only speaking from experience - it's an efficient killer. No, I do not have only 40 energy. My PvE character that I bring in at times is 69E/55E. I usually go 64E/55E when I build a PvP character. Energy is not an abnormal issue for me with this over almost any other Mesmer build I use. With Back Fire or Archane Echo used, of course the mana gets low, but using them is a choice that sometimes offers a worthwhile reward (faster enemy deaths). The main attack buries plenty of enemies without a struggle, and I have almost always have just over half a tank left.

Also, your description of "casting it twice" is not how the build operates. It was never described as something you can spam five times a minute. Recharge alone, regardless of energy, prevents that. It is about quick killing one target who's poorly prepared to defend it. After that, you do mini combos to help your team (35% - 50% damage here and there) until you are set to unload again. Like ANY offensive build, it is either stopped or it isn't since nothing is perfect. If I see Hex Breaker or a fast healing character, I move on to another target unless I'm double teaming.

It's not complicated at all - in real battles that is. I've gotten at least five 20+ win streaks in PuGs with this thing, and earned plenty of faction using it (it's mainly my faction farm build these days because I expeiment with other builds). Plus I found out that when you get your XP bar filled up, you can't spend the Skill Points it earns if you use a PvP character for it. I ran my XP bar up three times before I noticed that, lol. Three Skill Points down the tubes.

Rather than re-debate forum theory all over again, I'll point you to a post where I took the time to detail various tactics to someone who made similar mistakes from the easy chair. There is PLENTY to do when you aren't using the main sequence. Respond there if you wish, but I've said all I can on the subject I think. No build is unstoppable, and almost all builds have one thing it does well with other things it does just adequately. This is no difference.

Also, how about showing me several offensive Arena builds that can do three or four different things, recharges in a flash, and maintains top potency while spending only 20% energy? It's a serious question, so I can understand what it is I'm supposed to be shooting for. All builds win and lose. All builds can get stomped. What I can say from experience is this thing has gotten me plenty of wins because when it works (which is often), it kills quickly. I lose due to inadequate teammates far more than getting shutdown or killed. Perhaps it is weak in forum theory battles, but it holds up just fine in a lot of real battles.

smurfhunter · Aug 27, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Also, how about showing me several offensive Arena builds that can do three or four different things, recharges in a flash, and maintains top potency while spending only 20% energy? It's a serious question, so I can understand what it is I'm supposed to be shooting for.

any decent elementalist can fire off spells nonstop for the duration of the fight.

how?

80 energy with elemental attunement/___attunement. you wont be running out. specifically, an air spiker with that build can *continuously* spam lightning strike, orb, chain and enervating. this is not "forum theory", ive done it. the concept of "forum theory" is simply a poor mans way of evading an argument.

now duh if someone rends your enchants you cant do this, but then you cant do it if someone eats up all your energy, etc. there is a counter to every build.

but i simply disagree with your facts. if you choose to dismiss it as forum theory, well, i guess ill do the same to you.

arredondo · Aug 27, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

I know about Air ele's strength's, but that's not 3 or 4 "different" things. It's sending air spells one after the other, arguably a "one-trick pony". In the end, I don't think that is a fair way to judge any build. As for forum theory vs. actual, frequent experience... you pick your methods and I'll pick mine.

Of course you make do with what you have depending on the situation. Air eles aren't gimped beyond worth if they get a few spells Power-interrupted by an ele (so easy to do), and Fragility-Virulence builds have other lesser-but-productive options when gimped a bit as well.

Sometimes I provide back up to a Warrior - he is Severing Arteries for Bleeding, so it takes me .7 to cast Fragility, .75 aftercast, and .7 to apply Virulence. That's 216 damage from 2 seconds of casting for only 20E, he's still Bleeding and the Warrior is still pounding away. I see someone at 50% health and I can cast Phantom Pain+Shatter Delusions in about two seconds also.... a 35% health spike for 15E. I look for spell spammers to throw Back Fire at them (or as protection from Air eles). At times its a 10 sec. deterrent, at times I get the damage out of it.

Besides Back Fire to slow Air Eles from zapping me, I also have defense for Warrior/Rangers (Distortion) and Necro/Mesmers (Hex Breaker), and I still have room to rez a teammate. You just have to make the most of your situation and you can't possibly do it all, but I do well enough with my Fragility build to know that it can take care of business.

secretsmg · Aug 27, 2005, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Nothing wrong with fragility, it's virulence that's bugged.